In December 2019, we wrote in regards to the Hurdalsjøen Restoration Heart, which is a personal psychiatric hospital situated about forty minutes north of Oslo, on the banks of beautiful Lake Hurdal. The hospital was arrange by its director, Ole Andreas Underland, to supply “medication-free” care for individuals who needed such therapy or who needed to taper from their psychiatric medication.
On this interview, I discuss once more with Ole Andreas to grasp each the success of this pioneering method and why this success may threaten its future.
The transcript under has been edited for size and readability. Hearken to the audio of the interview right here.
Robert Whitaker: Good day, my title is Bob Whitaker and I’m very happy in the present day to have as our visitor Ole Andreas Underland. In 2015, he opened the Lake Hurdal Restoration Heart in Norway to supply medication-free therapy to those that needed such therapy or to sufferers who needed to taper from their psychiatric medication. As Mad in America has urged for a paradigm shift in psychiatric care, this can be a heart that very a lot embodies that paradigm shift.
Now we have lengthy thought-about it probably the most vital initiatives within the Western world. So we’re actually happy in the present day to have Ole inform us in regards to the restoration heart, its evolution and a few of the struggles it has confronted in political-financial circles. Ole, thanks for being our visitor.
Ole Andreas Underland: Thanks very a lot, Bob. I recognize being invited to your crucial program.
Whitaker: Let’s return to the start. Why did you do that?
Underland: I’ve to begin with my background. I used to be raised in a suburb of Oslo, the capital of Norway, near the biggest psychiatric hospital at the moment, Dikemark. After I was 16 years outdated, I began to work within the kitchen within the Dikemark and after I was 18 years outdated, I used to be already a father of a stunning daughter. Then I used to be educated as a nurse and I did several types of jobs inside Norwegian mainstream psychiatry till 1994.
I labored for one and a half years as a gross sales supervisor for a pharmaceutical firm truly launching the primary SSRIs to the Norwegian markets. However I stop my job after one and a half years, despite the fact that it was an awesome business success, as a result of as everyone knows the so-called antidepressant with out unintended effects was an enormous bluff.
After I began up in ‘97 with my very own advisory service, I used my information about easy methods to set up providers for folks with psychological issues. And in 2000, I based my first healthcare firm, and after I bought that seven years later, after an awesome business success, an important factor was that I proved for the municipalities that it was utterly potential to make housing for folks with psychological issues, and in addition if they’d conduct issues and abuse issues.
To have a home, the place you would suppose “This can be a place I might dwell myself, and with dignity,” exhibits that regardless of how huge an issue you would have had from earlier on, it was potential to have dignified housing. And that is truly a really huge success in Norway. Most of the municipalities in the present day have very, superb housing for folks with persistent psychological issues.
Then, in 2013, I met the chief of probably the most profiled sufferers’ group in Norway, known as the White Eagle, Jan-Magne Sorensen. He was talking at a convention and he introduced some slightly particular papers, which confirmed that schizophrenia sufferers with out remedy had much better restoration charges than those on antipsychotic remedy.
I’m a psychiatric nurse by occupation, and I’d been working inside the psychiatric space for about half my life and I’d by no means heard about this. I went to see him and he was the chief of this umbrella group in Norway that, with different sufferers’ organizations, had already succeeded in having the parliament resolve that we must always have a medication-free different in Norway.
In 2010, they reached this aim. The parliament determined that there needs to be therapy alternate options in Norway and it needs to be part of Norwegian psychiatry. However in 2013, nobody had began up such a spot, despite the fact that from the political perspective this was mentioned to be probably the most vital issues for psychiatry to do.
So that they known as me again after six months and invited me to this umbrella group and mentioned, “Ole Andreas, you’re a healthcare entrepreneur. We would like you to assist us to explain a mission, this medication-free hospital, however it’s important to assist us make this appear to be one thing that could possibly be launched.”
I did this without cost after all and this was a really, very surprising expertise for me. I believed I knew quite a bit in relation to easy methods to deal with folks with psychological issues and I used to be fairly sure that remedy was a really, crucial a part of it. And I met these folks. I needed to admit that I misunderstood numerous issues. And it was fairly simple to assist them describe this mission, and what a recovery-oriented psychiatric hospital ought to appear to be.
Whitaker: I discover this so fascinating—the substances that went into your making this resolution. In the US, we regularly hear peer teams say “housing first.” You had already skilled the housing first advantages.
Underland: Sure.
Whitaker: Then there was the political change in Norway, which frequently doesn’t exist in different international locations. And that political basis got here from peer politics.
Underland: Sure, sure.
Whitaker: Third, you got here in contact with proof, the Martin Harrow examine, that’s so convincing, and also you had the open thoughts to simply accept it or imagine it could possibly be true, slightly than resist it.
Lastly, you introduced with you the entrepreneurship, that potential to take a leap. In different phrases, what got here collectively, from my perspective, to create this unbelievable initiative, was a lot of distinctive elements.
Underland: It additionally demonstrates how tough it’s for the sufferers’ organizations inside the subject of psychiatry to dare to counsel one thing, as a result of after I mentioned, okay, it’s clear that we’ve got to make a recovery-oriented hospital and, if we go for a recovery-oriented hospital, half of the workers ought to have lived expertise. Wow! The largest group on this umbrella group mentioned that they’ll suppose we’re mad!
When we’ve got some dialogue in the present day, we will snicker about it, nevertheless it’s apparent that’s what we needed to do.
Whitaker: Simply to be clear about this. You concerned the peer teams with the design of the place after which when you opened it, with the staffing of the place. So that they had been half and parcel of making this initiative.
Underland: To begin with, I helped them as a result of this group was going to point out the well being division of Norway, “That is the hospital we wish. We would like it recovery-oriented. We need to have medication-free therapy and we’ve got to arrange on this manner, inside the framework of the authorized system of Norway.” And my job was carried out then.
This was in 2013. Then, one 12 months later, I used to be requested by one other massive psychiatric hospital if I might assist them with 5 very chronically sick psychiatric sufferers who had been hospitalized for 10 to fifteen years, and if I might assist them get out of the hospital.
After all, being an entrepreneur, I believed, okay we’ve got to ascertain a psychiatric hospital.
To start with, all of those sufferers had been on compelled therapy. I made an utility to the well being authorities to have us be licensed as a psychiatric hospital. After which I used the mission from this umbrella group. So I made this hospital and the mission was designed by the biggest customers’ organizations in Norway.
It’s no surprise it labored. Doing this startup, we needed to work quite a bit as function fashions, as a result of very most of the different nurses, the opposite workers, had all their expertise from mainstream psychiatry. To work recovery-oriented, it’s important to work in a totally completely different manner, nevertheless it was a hit from day one.
Whitaker: Inform us what occurred to these first 5 sufferers.
Underland: It was an awesome success. The primary girl, she turned a star in Norway. Truly, a documentary on the radio was made about her life. All of them are in the present day dwelling by themselves.
Whitaker: All 5?
Underland: Sure, all 5 of them. And none stayed in our hospital for greater than half a 12 months.
It was so disturbing for me to grasp how vital the empowerment was, asking the primary girl, “what do you actually need out of your life?” And he or she instructed me what she needed. And he or she achieved her objectives. However it’s so disturbing to know that she’s been hospitalized since she was 18 years outdated and by no means, by no means been listened to and by no means been requested this straightforward query, what sort of life do you need to dwell?
Whitaker: Inform us about their use of remedy once they got here to you. How did that change?
Underland: They had been on the strange sort of drugs. This particular girl was on antipsychotics. She had gained practically 100 kilograms over this final 10 years. And he or she had numerous unintended effects, after all, together with that weight problems. She was not in want of antipsychotics; that was a choice from her first hospital.
However you recognize, the nervousness and the unhealthy emotions disappear if you’re having a life. And this girl, this beautiful girl, she had a improbable household. However they didn’t imagine within the system or the hospital. And he or she didn’t imagine in it.
It took me three months to make her imagine that she might belief us. However when she trusted us, the issue [of anxiety and bad feelings] not existed. After all, she has some behavioral issues, however nonetheless, this was seven years in the past and I’m nonetheless the one she calls when there’s something tough in life. And that is the best way it needs to be. In the event you’ve trusted somebody and you’ve got correct assist, then you’ll proceed to name the particular person. After all, I’ll nonetheless reply her.
That was the primary person who had such a improbable response to this recovery-oriented manner. On the hospital the place she had been for 15 years, I keep in mind this Chief Psychologist, he couldn’t imagine what he noticed. She was additionally on compelled therapy and she or he was taken off compelled therapy for the primary time in 15 years.
Whitaker: With these preliminary 5, did the therapy contain tapering them from their drugs or tapering down?
Underland: Yeah, tapering down was a part of it, not for everybody. I feel it’s extra just like the outcomes we’ve got in the present day, the place 70% of our sufferers have a problem with remedy. For these sufferers, they had been so hospitalized, so chronically hospitalized, that they didn’t know a life with out remedy.
However if you see the affected person doesn’t have the vitality to dwell her personal life in an residence, after all, it’s important to take a look at the remedy. She had, roughly, a persistent psychotic manner of life, however for her, because it was for a lot of different folks, I feel it’s important to study to dwell with it, and the remedy didn’t do any good for these signs. It gave her 100 kilograms of additional weight, however nothing occurred to her psychosis.
Whitaker: You’re a personal hospital inside a public well being system. How do sufferers come to you and are all of them Norwegian? Or have you ever had some folks come from different international locations as effectively?
Underland: Primarily, we’ve got had sufferers from Norway, however we’ve got had sufferers from Sweden and we’ve got had some sufferers calling us from the U.S. and in addition from Germany and Denmark and the U.Okay.
As a precept, we don’t take private-paying sufferers. We’re 100% publicly financed in the present day, having sufferers from different hospitals in Norway and having a public basis, so we haven’t opened up for private-paying sufferers. That’s additionally a press release we took as a result of what we’ve got been doing is to make [our hospital] a part of the general public system of Norway in order that there could be no dialogue about revenue and incomes cash.
We’re an strange psychiatric hospital inside the framework of the Norwegian authorized system and healthcare system. Now we have the identical numbers of nurses, psychiatrists, and psychologists, and we observe the identical guidelines, however we provide one thing particular as a result of we provide a recovery-oriented medication-free therapy program. I don’t suppose there’s one other hospital on this planet doing the identical factor.
Whitaker: I don’t both. Inform us what a day is like there for sufferers. What’s the therapy program like?
Underland: The therapy consists of three pillars. It’s IMR—Sickness Administration and Restoration Remedy. That’s 5 days per week, one and a half to 2 hours daily, besides on the weekends. Then it’s the high-intensity coaching, 5 days per week.
Whitaker: That’s bodily coaching. It’s train.
Underland: Bodily coaching, high-intensity coaching, as a result of it addresses your coronary heart.
Then it’s what we name a nutritious diet from our wonderful cooks. Now we have the perfect restaurant within the north of Oslo. We do take every kind of diets, however inside an setting the place you’ve got the whole lot that humankind likes to have, clear air, good view, a forest, good lake, and an important factor, folks, good folks with the suitable perspective. And naturally, half of the workers have lived expertise and find out about how this drawback you’ve got—the way it’s potential to dwell with it and easy methods to cope with it.
Whitaker: What number of sufferers are in your hospital at anyone time?
Underland: We are literally two hospitals in Hurdal. Altogether, we’ve got 60 sufferers.
Whitaker: Are you typically at full capability?
Underland: Now we have been at full capability for practically three years.
Whitaker: Half the workers is folks with lived expertise. You clearly have psychiatrists working with you that can assist you with the drug tapering. How do their psychiatrists reply to this setting that’s so completely different than the standard setting they could have recognized?
Underland: That’s probably the most vital findings, as a result of if you happen to’re working a psychiatric hospital in Norway, an important man inside the psychiatric hospital is the psychiatrist. It was nearly not possible to search out, however I discovered one. He was the one psychiatrist who dared to begin working with us, and it’s a robust phrase to say dare, however that’s the reality.
The hospital actually had a tricky time till two years in the past, after we had a big documentary on the largest Norwegian tv station exhibiting Norwegian folks how a psychiatric hospital could possibly be. At this time, we’ve got no issues, with superb, very intelligent, younger and outdated psychiatrists working with us. We even have a ready listing of psychiatrists eager to work with us.
At this time, we recruit higher psychiatrists than mainstream [hospitals] do, and the reason being apparent. They like to see the sufferers being glad and, after all, everybody desires to work inside a system that provides glad sufferers. So, in the present day, this isn’t an issue, nevertheless it was the largest drawback for the primary 12 months and it was apparent that the union of psychiatrists in Norway had been sabotaging this medication-free system, very a lot.
On the first convention the place I used to be requested to present a overview of 1 12 months’s expertise, the organizer of this convention mentioned “Ole Andreas, I’ve to deal with the issue as a result of the Board of Specialists say that they’ll depart if I allow you to discuss.” So it’s a robust foyer.
At this time, there isn’t any drawback, and to have nurses and psychologists has by no means been an issue. At this time I’ve a psychiatrist who’s 70 years outdated and one other psychiatrist near 30 years outdated, and I’ve folks from completely different international locations coming to our hospital to learn to work, recovery-oriented and medication-free.
Whitaker: They get to have relationships with the sufferers, which you don’t typically see in strange hospitals.
Underland: In our hospital, the affected person tells us what he desires us to assist him with. He units the objectives. It’s not all the time apparent, and it’s not all the time the identical aim for the entire interval, however this can be a recreation changer.
After all, we’ve got folks with completely different competencies. It’s crucial to have psychologists and psychiatrists and nurses, however I additionally know an important factor is to have folks with lived expertise. The oldest psychiatrist who’s been working in mainstream psychiatry in Norway for thus lengthy mentioned, ”It’s so tragic to see how little affect the psychiatrist truly has within the restoration technique of a affected person.”
I feel that’s a really sturdy assertion. That is precisely what it’s all about. It’s not us. It’s not my information. It’s easy methods to assist the affected person study to dwell together with his or her well being drawback.
Whitaker: How would you describe your sufferers which have been by means of come to you? Do you get very many first-episode sufferers, otherwise you principally getting sufferers who’ve kind of failed within the standard system?
Underland: I’ll say 80%-90% of the sufferers coming to us are sufferers who’ve tried mainstream psychiatry earlier, and most of them have had very tragic experiences. Lots of them have been traumatized by compelled therapy, and particularly by compelled remedy.
As you recognize, we even have [government] approval for compelled therapy. Now we have a mattress for fixation [restraint], which is one thing it’s important to have when you’ve got sufferers on compelled therapy [but it has never been used]. We determined to acquire this approval as a result of then sufferers on compelled therapy [orders] from different hospitals might come to our hospital.
In eight years, we’ve got by no means had a single grievance on the usage of compelled therapy, by no means, by no means. That was the principle argument for medication-free therapy by the customers organizations. If we are going to eliminate compelled therapy, we’ve got to present sufferers one thing that they imagine in and an alternative choice to remedy.
Whitaker: Once they’re underneath a compelled therapy order once they come to you, that doesn’t imply you’re forcing remedy on them. They must be there, however that therapy can contain not giving them remedy or tapering them from remedy. Is that right?
Underland: Sure, after all. Even if you’re on compelled therapy, if the affected person believes in you and within the system and agrees with what’s occurring, you don’t have to pressure him or her. It’s apparent.
Whitaker: It’s not how the remainder of the world works, sadly. The traditional system doesn’t work that manner.
Underland: No, it’s not, and because of this our eight years of expertise are so vital. In Norway, we’ve got a really excessive variety of sufferers being handled by pressure, and mainstream psychiatry does because it has all the time carried out. I used to be so naïve that I believed that this historical past [of our treatment of patients under forced treatment orders] would make an affect, however after some years, I understood that these histories had been instructed to psychiatrists for many years, having no impact in any respect.
Whitaker: Let’s discuss your outcomes. Begin together with your expertise with tapering folks on drugs as a result of the standard knowledge is that you may’t try this, folks go loopy, they turn out to be psychotic once more. Inform us about what you’ve realized about (a) what might be carried out and (b) what’s one of the simplest ways to taper folks down?
Underland: What we’ve got realized from the 650 sufferers we’ve had is that it is rather, very particular person. Once more, it’s important to hear very, very fastidiously to what the affected person tells you.
Keep in mind, I’m not a psychiatrist. I’m a educated nurse, and naturally, it’s the psychiatrists who’re serving to the sufferers with the tapering. I do know that of all these [650] sufferers we’ve got had by means of our hospital, most of them for about 4 months, 80% of them say they’re very glad with the therapy program and 70% of all these sufferers need to scale back or to cease utilizing psychopharmaceuticals.
Whitaker: Seventy p.c say they need to, and are they profitable?
Underland: Eighty p.c of those sufferers meet their private objectives of decreasing or phasing out prescription drugs altogether. However phasing out medication could be very demanding for a lot of and it must be custom-made as a result of some sufferers will reply with fairly heavy unintended effects even when the dosage is taken down little or no. We see that particularly on antidepressants that they’re very, very powerful to cut back for some sufferers, however another sufferers can scale back with out having any issues in any respect.
Whitaker: If I interviewed lots of your sufferers who mentioned they had been glad, what would they are saying was the explanation for his or her satisfaction?? In what manner had been their lives remodeled?
Underland: What they inform us is that for the primary time, they had been requested the query, “What sort of assist would you like?” They usually meet humble folks. Even the psychiatrist is humble. Asking the exact same query, “What can I do for you?”
After all, having an setting that doesn’t appear to be a psychiatric hospital [helps.] Now we have guests from all around the world on a regular basis. Now we have college students, folks from the municipality, everyone seems to be coming to go to, politicians and every kind of pros, besides psychiatrists from the mainstream. And this makes an setting the place the affected person doesn’t suppose “this can be a place the place I get stigmatized,” and that is utterly completely different from what they’ve skilled at different hospitals. Now we have open doorways and we’ve got wonderful meals.
However an important factor is that they make their very own private service plan, as I name them. A program during which they are saying, “I’ll use this the subsequent time I’ve a disaster and I cannot find yourself on the hospital.”
As a psychiatric hospital, we’ve got to be, as Peter Breggin mentioned, “a loving, caring haven.” Now we have to be a spot the place the affected person loves to come back as a result of he is aware of we offers you this loving, caring haven and that is what we’ve got achieved.
Whitaker: Having been to your house at Lake Hurdal, I can attest that it’s a really nice place and the meals was wonderful. A fast query. Have you ever considered publishing any outcomes [data]?
Underland: We haven’t carried out an excessive amount of on that. Now we have carried out some analysis in relation to the therapy of IMR and the high-intensity coaching. Our psychiatrists and our workers are requested to present speeches and discuss our outcomes. However what I actually am hoping for is that we might have some funding to do analysis, and satisfying clients is the primary [outcome]. In the event you’re working a restaurant or a hospital, glad clients, and naturally, not having to make use of compelled therapy.
Whitaker: Let’s discuss your future. You’ve made this occur, you’ve got eight years of doing it, you’ve got a satisfaction fee of 80%, and you’ve got folks which can be in a position to taper down their use of remedy.
It might appear that you simply had been primed to proceed. You simply had an article in a newspaper the place a affected person mentioned, “Going to this place [Lake Hurdal] saved my life.” You may’t get higher PR than that. However what’s your future inside the Norwegian system? Is it precarious?
Underland: Now we have had numerous political consideration. Everybody was visiting us as a result of glad sufferers inside psychiatry is kind of sensational. And everybody was speaking about how vital it’s to have these recovery-oriented medication-free therapy applications. However the reality is that one month in the past, we closed down the newest our two clinics. So in the present day we solely have 30 beds. And the reason being that we’ve got been subsidizing the working of the hospital fairly closely for the reason that final 12 months, particularly after the election, as a result of mainstream psychiatry satisfied the politicians in cost that they don’t want us.
The primary monetary system letting folks come to us was launched by the Conservative Celebration and it’s been fairly a hit for eight years. However the Labor Celebration, who now’s in cost, they’re towards this financing system. The issue is that with out this financing system, we won’t have sufferers as a result of then the general public system will deal with them. Although there are numerous issues, capability issues inside the public system, they’re now hoping that we are going to hand over.
So, we at the moment are struggling. With none settlement with the general public system, we’ll have to shut down in 4 months.
Whitaker: Two questions. Primary, what can the person teams in Norway do to attempt to assist maintain you alive? And my second query: What might be carried out by our listeners as a result of from Mad in America’s viewpoint and our listeners’ viewpoint, your hospital, your initiative, is a mannequin for what is feasible and for a paradigm shift that we’ve all been urging or advocating for.
You had the help from Dainius Pūras, or somebody from his workplace on the United Nations for Particular Rapporteur for Well being visited and noticed you for instance of a brand new manner ahead. I imagine the World Well being Group cited you for instance of a manner ahead that’s so significantly better than the present mannequin. So, two questions. One, what can Norwegian person teams, or the Norwegian folks, do to strive that can assist you survive? After which what might be carried out by these on the surface who need to see a change?
Underland: I feel we’ve got to lift our voices. I feel the politicians know our significance as a result of once they have visited us, the one drawback for the politicians in Norway is that this can be a business firm working it.
The significance of this recovery-oriented hospital is dramatic as a result of with out Lake Hurdal Restoration Heart, you’ve got completely no different hospital on this planet working in the best way that the sufferers need.
And the final 12 months, we’ve got had an enormous marketing campaign from one newspaper telling each sort of lie about us. Now we have had one suicide in our hospital for eight years. Yearly, someplace between 200 and 250 sufferers commit suicide whereas being hospitalized in Norwegian psychiatry.
And that is the quantity we all know effectively. Now we have 80% glad sufferers, and we’ve got had, on this eight years, 5 affected person complaints they usually had been complaining as a result of we wouldn’t extend their stays in our hospital. However this huge marketing campaign towards us tells me that some folks on the market are so eager on making an attempt to say that that is flawed.
That’s as a result of some are very afraid of us. At this time, it’s important to take heed to the sufferers. If we will change the system, it won’t be modified by the outdated system. The outdated system has had 12 years the place they may have made this occur in their very own hospitals, however they don’t need to, as a result of they’re nonetheless dwelling within the outdated paradigm.
And naturally, the mandatory adjustments in psychiatry might be pushed by glad sufferers. So I actually need assistance from each Norwegian person organizations, and internationally, as I feel on the UN and the WHO, they must say “This mission in Norway needs to be out there internationally.”
Then I might, after all, begin up some other place. However why achieve this? Now we have used eight years of our work and made this pilot occur and confirmed that that is potential inside the strange authorized framework.
Whitaker: You understand, it jogs my memory of a mission that was carried out within the Seventies in the US known as the Soteria Undertaking, which was led by Loren Mosher, who was the pinnacle of schizophrenia research on the Nationwide Institute of Psychological Well being. He proved that it labored. It was run as an experiment. They ran it for 10 years, it produced higher outcomes and was cost-effective.
It was constructed round numerous the identical ideas of listening to the folks: what do the purchasers, the sufferers, need? They may use drugs in accordance with custom-made use. It labored after which American psychiatry crushed it.
That was a second the place the trail within the wooden splits, in a historic sense, and that’s when this fashion was crushed. And we went down this organic mannequin of medicine, medication, medication, and now I see your hospital, your initiative, a replication of that point in historical past the place there’s a street that’s splitting into two. And the query is, are we going to maintain open that different pathway that you simply’ve pioneered right here, which does deliver up echoes of the Soteria Undertaking.
So, all I can say is that I hope that there might be political stress placed on the Norwegian authorities to maintain your initiative alive, as a result of I feel it’s so vital for not simply Norway, however for everyone that desires to see a unique paradigm emerge.
Underland: I utterly agree. However I need to say that the forces towards us are very, very highly effective. And, after all, what we’ve got achieved over these eight years, could be very, crucial for thus many individuals.
However you recognize, the sufferers affected by psychological issues are completely different from sufferers affected by coronary heart illness or most cancers who don’t have this sense of stigma. They’re a lot bolder, they’re a a lot stronger foyer. And if you happen to take a look at the actual fact, the numbers of compelled therapy sufferers in Norway is strictly the identical quantity 12 years after this resolution of getting a medication-free therapy program. We haven’t had a single grievance due to the usage of “compelled therapy” in our hospital.
It proved that the affected person’s group had been utterly proper. To cut back the usage of compelled therapy, it’s important to present sufferers with a therapy system which they imagine in and which respects them. Additionally, in relation to remedy, if I don’t need to use remedy, I ought to have one other risk. And the IMR is after all additionally for folks wanting to make use of remedy, but in addition for individuals who don’t need to use remedy.
However we’ve got to take heed to the affected person. To kill the one hospital on the face of the earth doing this in the best way that each the UN and the WHO need is a really silly factor. What we had been planning if you had been visiting us [in 2019] was to begin up a global heart, as a result of we predict that is higher for folks to come back to our system and to our hospital, and to study, to show others easy methods to do it in their very own international locations.
I’m fairly shocked that we’re on this scenario initially of this new 12 months. However we are going to battle and we are going to combat. However we are going to want each help we will have, each in Norway and internationally.
Whitaker: I feel you’ve summed up what’s at stake so effectively right here. There’s quite a bit at stake for the folks of Norway, however there’s quite a bit at stake internationally as effectively and one way or the other we’ve got to maintain this hope alive. So thanks for this stunning summation of what you do right here and the philosophy that governs you. I want we had 100 such hospitals all around the world.
Underland: We’ll.
Whitaker: Let’s hope so.
